tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7091756463128804432.post6794208747468192829..comments2024-03-27T02:55:10.109-07:00Comments on Irish Papist: Patriotism, Nationalism, Exceptionalism and SuperiorityMaolsheachlannhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09406722311993627528noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7091756463128804432.post-7496313794119704042017-02-10T16:19:11.351-08:002017-02-10T16:19:11.351-08:00Thanks for that, MacCruimein. We are in the strang...Thanks for that, MacCruimein. We are in the strange position of both having more favourable views of the others' culture than of our own! I'm familiar with the "mile wide and inch deep" critique of American religiosity, but I can't really sympathise with it. It seems to me that religion really does make a difference to American peoples' lives, for instance in the greater number of Americans who are willing to homeschool their children to keep them from being indoctrinated, or to vote according to religious considerations.<br /><br />I do think aesthetics and lifestyle is important, but I wonder are you given it an exaggerated importance? Ugly buildings aren't really a moral flaw. Please don't think I'm dismissing the importance of culture, because really I'm not, but I do think that conscious religious practice is way more important than some kind of internalised, 'deep' Christianity you might be identifying in Ireland. I do think that the Irish rejection of the Church is overwhelmingly a genuine rejection of Christianity, even though it sometimes masquerades as rejection of the "institutional" Church (as though there was any other kind). As for whether an essential Christianity remains in the Irish pysche...I hope that is true. I think it might well be.<br /><br />America may be more materialistic..I'm not sure.<br /><br />You may be interested in the blog and writings of Roger Buck, an American living in Ireland, whose views seem very similar to yours. Indeed we have had much the same discussion. Here is his blog:<br /><br />http://corjesusacratissimum.org/Maolsheachlannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406722311993627528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7091756463128804432.post-29043667673144063522017-02-10T16:01:02.004-08:002017-02-10T16:01:02.004-08:00Cheers, Maolsheachlann. Many thanks for your respo...Cheers, Maolsheachlann. Many thanks for your response. Let us compare America and Ireland. With respect to religion, the situations are almost exact opposites: America is a society in which, as you point out, religious faith, at least defined as individuals who claim belief or religious affiliation, is much more widespread than in Ireland. But the culture is completely secular, materialist, and often even hostile to Christianity. Religion is what one does on some Sunday mornings if at all (you may have come across many Democrats' recent preferred term "freedom of worship" as opposed to "freedom of religion"), and what one talks about publicly on occasion with reverence which usually comes across awkwardly, as either sentimental or inappropriate, or both. Religious claims -- whether dogmatic, metaphysical, ethical, have no right to exist in civic life, which means that despite the fact that most people consider themselves Christians, this is all dissipated in a collective culture which does not welcome religion. Note the steady retreat of Christian morality in America over the last century, steadily yielding ground to a still tiny non-religious (mainly elite) crowd, but one which has the power of the law and culture behind it. Though America is a beautiful land, you will find scattered upon it endless ugly and cheap buildings, and an endless stream massive advertising signs on all the motorways and highways. The American response to faith is to go out and buy a billboard with a Bible verse on it, or perhaps a line like, "Life is short. Eternity isn't. -God". The Irish response is to do something Christian like write poetry, or sing a song, or drink a beer. The first results in rock concert megachurches, the second in parish churches and nice old ladies. <br /><br />In Ireland everything visible about the Church is in decline -- Mass attendance, vocations, etc. However, Catholicism is so rooted into the society in so many invisible, cultural ways, that it feels much more like a Christian one than America. Acquisitiveness and materialism have never and will never come close to American proportions; many people still love beauty and simplicity more than money, they take much better care of the land, family bonds and village/neighborhood bonds are much stronger, and there are still ties to traditional culture which roots the people in the past, though perhaps in many cases less than in former days. These things still shapes the moral sensibilities of the Irish in a remarkably Catholic way. For a number of historical reasons that you know better than me, record numbers are visibly turning away from the Church. But, in many cases, is it because they reject Christ, or because they feel too hurt or angry or fed up, or perhaps are just ignorant? Particularly in light of the relentlessness of mounting pressure that has been against Ireland for centuries, and decades, and years, I still find much hope for the future of Ireland in the core of Catholicism and traditional culture that may for now only subsist, but which are at the heart of Irish identity, perhaps waiting for future generations to remember again. I am sorry to say that it is more hope than I have for America. <br /><br />Please do come back at me with any thoughts you may have. As a young American currently living in the UK, of almost completely Irish descent, who feels more at home in Ireland than in America for many of the above reasons, (I have lived in Ireland for two summers and visited family there for years) this is a topic often on my mind. All the more so as the wife and I must within the next couple years decide where to raise the little ones! <br /><br />Warmly,<br /><br />MacCruimeinMac Cruimeinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07980990831517510268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7091756463128804432.post-36797016290347365832017-02-10T13:13:06.233-08:002017-02-10T13:13:06.233-08:00Thanks for your kind words, MacCruimein. Yes, I do...Thanks for your kind words, MacCruimein. Yes, I don't think you could have put it better; the false choice between cosmopolitanism and nationalism-as-fascism is constantly presented to us.<br /><br />Regarding America, I would actually make the argument that the American rejection of an established religion has been good for religion, including Catholicism. Whereas countries which had a Catholic establishment, like France and Spain, are now deeply secular. Indeed, Malta is one of the few countries left in the world where Catholicism is the established religion, and its bishops are now spouting heresy. That's my view, anyway. I'd also appeal to our Lord's words about giving unto Caesar and his kingdom not being of this world.Maolsheachlannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406722311993627528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7091756463128804432.post-9869398705785753002017-02-10T09:04:20.481-08:002017-02-10T09:04:20.481-08:00Hi,
Thank you for posting your thoughts on Americ...Hi,<br /><br />Thank you for posting your thoughts on America and nationalism. Your point about being a nationalist who happens to be Irish is exactly right! Nobody else talks about nationalism-as-particularism these days; one only hears about progressive globalistm or nationalists-as-fascism-or racism.<br /><br />If I may, I would like to challenge you on the point of American Founding Fathers being "the wisest and most far-sighted nation-builders in history." Of course, one can take a broad or a narrow definition of "nation-builder", but to really get to the point, consider the secularism which is enshrined in the Bill of Rights. Isn't America founded on a disordered view of religion, namely by setting the political (the State) as the arbiter of the metaphysical (religion)? How does one justify this from a Catholic perspective? Surely the State, being a worldly institution, ought to serve the Church, a divine one (to say nothing of not actively opposing Her, which has happened throughout American history in various forms) and the attempt of post-enlightenment secular democracies to subvert this natural order must only end in at least failure, if not also disaster and suffering. Your response would be most appreciated.<br /><br />Respectfully,<br /><br />MacCruimeinMac Cruimeinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07980990831517510268noreply@blogger.com